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10/23/2017 » 10/25/2017
Creation and Cosmology: The Beginning & End of God’s Good World, Oak Park, IL

“Space, the Final (Philosophical) Frontier" Wheaton, IL

“God’s Agape/Probability Design,” Langley, BC

“The Natural, the Supernatural, and the Meaning of Creation,” Deerfield, IL and Streaming

10/27/2017 » 10/28/2017
“Reading Genesis Well,” Berrien Springs, MI

Moderator(s): Randall D. Isaac
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by l. brunstdge
Tuesday, October 10, 2017
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by M. Phillips
Tuesday, September 26, 2017
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by M. Phillips
Tuesday, September 26, 2017
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by N. Worth
Thursday, August 10, 2017
AGU - Christian networking event? 0 H. Fuqua-Haviland Any ASA affiliates attending the American Geophysical Union (AGU) next week in San Francisco? Please send me a private message if you would like to attend a Christian networking event and prayer meeting.   --Heidi Fuqua-Haviland
by H. Fuqua-Haviland
Wednesday, December 7, 2016
Historical Adam: Yes or No 9 P. Bruggink Give me ~ 1/2 Yes. I'm neither a theologian nor active scientist; I'm proud to take the roll of "Average Joe". I also think they were specific individuals that were preceded by "pre-Adamites", as Dick Fisher calls them. Nevertheless, this topic is one I have found very interesting given the findings of modern astronomy, along with some interesting scriptural points.1) The genealogies of Ezra and Chronicles reveal a missing of 6 generations, implying (to me) that there may be many more genealogies that were not deemed worthy of memorization. If so, the 6,000 year idea is not a valid restriction on Adam's approximate age.2) King James uses the phrase "living soul" as imparted ("breathed") by God into Adam. This would be a major distinction between Adam and preAdamites, making Adam the first of a kind: a spiritual kind.3) Adam is not mentioned until chapter 2, and there is reasonable argument for a separate author than the one for chapter 1.4) A day may simply refer to a sequential day of observation by an eye-witness to highlights of creation, not a time stamp for creation itself. 5) Astronomy today may be seen as helpful to a more literal view. If so, Gen 2 might gain favor as also a more literal or historical presentation. Protostellar (accretion) disks, when heavily illuminated, should look blue (watery blue) due to Rayleigh scattering -- the same process that gives us a blue sky. Astronomers show evidence favoring the Sun formed, as with most stars, within a cloud that produced many other stars. The range, IIRC, is close to around 3000 neighbors. Astronomers statistically show that several very massive stars will likely form and form early, which are prodigious in light flux, especially in the blue part of the spectrum. The Sun may have produced a "first light" event as light broke through its natal cloud. Other blue disk, or at least one other (above or below), may account for the day 2 acct.These are subjective views, of course, but the amount of objective evidence emerging is certainly intriguing.
by G. Cooper
Monday, December 7, 2015
Review of End of Darwinism by Eugene Windchy 5 D. Roemer My understanding is that the 2nd law specifically addresses the dissemination of information ("nonmaterial"), and not simply observations of "liquids, solids, and gases." Some physicists have even suggested that information theory is the basis of this law. (e.g.,
by J. Hübner
Thursday, August 27, 2015
Cosmos 2nd round? 1 G. Cooper I agree, and wonder if in a second round Cosmos might even briefly examine the current state of science and faith discussion, and perhaps recognize some of the work being done (e.g., the CTNS volumes per the Vatican, Zygon journal, etc.) and the people doing it (e.g., Polkinghorne, Murphy, Van Till, etc.). Perhaps a well-worded letter to Tyson might encourage him to investigate?
by J. Hine
Monday, December 8, 2014
Statement of Faith and the Triune God 2 K. Vasques Hi Kalvin,I won't comment on ASA's policy per se. I believe that all are welcome to contribute to this site.What I would say is that the doctrine of the Trinity is part of mainstream, orthodox Christian belief, whether in its Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant forms (save Enlightenment Liberal Protestant theologies, many of which arguable are not actually Christian).You say above that the Nicene Creed identifies only Father and Son as being of the same substance; this may be technically true, but the Creed also says that the Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life and is to be worshiped together with the Father and the Son. But even without that, its affirmation of the Father and Son already rules out unitarianism.I don't say this to exclude. I think the ASA is about dialogue, though as a Christian organization it regards trinitarian belief as basic to Christian faith and confession.Consider the following quotes (the books cited may be helpful to read):“The doctrine of the Trinity can be regarded as the outcome of a process of sustained and critical reflection on the pattern of divine activity revealed in Scripture, and continued in Christian experience . . . Scripture bears witness to a God who demands to be understood in a Trinitarian manner.” (Alister McGrath, Christian Theology; Wiley-Blackwell, p. 239).“For the Christian confession, the doctrine of the Trinity makes all the difference in the world, for that doctrine is at the heart of the Christian gospel, and so at the heart of the Christian understanding of the nature of God and of the manner of God’s relation to the world” (John Webster, Holiness, Eerdmans, p. 36).“The doctrines of the Trinity and of the incarnation thus form together the nucleus at the heart of the Christian conception of God and constitute the ontological and epistemological basis for the formulation of every Christian doctrine.” (T. F. Torrance, The Christian Doctrine of God, T&T Clark, p. 30).These are representative of the broad consensus of the Christian tradition. For a recent biblical approach, you might want to check out Koestenberger and Swain's book here: My suggestion is to do some more reading on the Trinity to see why it's so central to Christian belief. And then continue the conversation.I don't want to comment on the membership policy; that's for others to decide. But I would suggest that the statement of faith cannot be modified as you suggest without purging it of its distinctively Christian content.
by P. Franklin
Wednesday, November 26, 2014
Jonah and the Whale 8 R. Boyd S Sutherland writes - " It also warns us that God will go to great measures to encourage us to align our views with his views".I must say that I struggle to know just what those views are - the Bible often seems contradictory. Input/advice/directives?
by J. Robbins
Friday, June 13, 2014
Entropy and Evolution 1 D. Roemer I've made good use of audio files, because they allow me to gather information while I'm doing brainless tasks around the house, or listen to prior to going to sleep or upon waking to get ready for the day.My wife and I have done many crafts while listening to audio resources of our own choosing. It is a nice reprieve from the drivel most often found on radio. Prayers are with you as you remain firm in pressing forward in your efforts.
by G. Anderson
Tuesday, February 4, 2014
Bible and Science Class Educational Resources 7 R. Duke It is probably too late for you to consider but I'd like to suggest Christopher Kaiser's Creational Theology and the History of Physical Science: The Creationist Tradition from Basis to Bohr Brill, 1997.Note that the term "Creational" and "Creationist" do not refer to the young or old earth creationists in the contemporary USA. Rather, it indicates how the doctrine of creation impacted science's development.   A potential limitation is that it only deals with the physical sciences so you may need to supplement it with additional readings. If you are envisioning more of a Science and Religion course you might consider Alister McGrath's excellent Science and Religion: A New Introduction Wiley, 2010.  The book is well organized and very clear but it can sometimes be difficult to tell exactly how McGrath's ideas fit together.  However, if you read his A Fine-Tuned Universe before teaching the class the connections will be very clear and you can point them out to your students.  A potential weakness is that the book is an introduction so he doesn't go into too much depth on any one topic.  You might also want to consider Southgate's God, Humanity, and the Cosmos, 3rd ed.   While this book is excellent it can be a bit challenging for introductory students.  It also might not be suitable for use at your university since it is rather theology-heavy and written almost exclusively from a Christian viewpoint. Anyway, I hope these suggestions help. Steve
by S. Contakes
Wednesday, November 20, 2013
Cosmos 3 B. Gambone This is the Quranic account of the destiny of the universe. It began as a singularity and violently hot. The universe suddenly expanded creating space and time. The Qur'an then describes the early universe at a later stage as hot, hazy and gaseous. In the distant future overwhelming gravitational forces will halt the expansion. Space-time will be curved upon itself and the universe will start to contract. It will become gaseous once more and towards the end, matter will be crushed into its constituent atoms and subatomic particles and finally the universe will collapse into a singularity. From this second singularity a new inconceivable cosmos will emerge. This is not an oscillating universe. It is simply mind-bobbling that a 7th century document could give such a precise scientific account of the origin and fate of the universe. H1 H2 H3 H4 H5 H6
by J. Noor
Sunday, July 28, 2013
Origin of the term "evolutionary creation" 3 T. Gray Its listed here with no link to it yet.  Thanks for promoting the phrase.  I like it over theistic evolution to convey what is most important, "creation", but without the "ist" or "ism".  But, it isn't searched as much on the Internet yet (per Google Trends).  So, when setting up social media, you need to have "theistic evolution" in keywords for people to find you.  Btw, my Twitter handle is @EvoCreatn if anyone wants to join me there.  
by K. Furman
Sunday, April 7, 2013
CreationWiki on Evolution and Entropy 2 D. Roemer Dr. William Bradley of Baylor University and an ASA member responded to an email I sent about "Entropy and evolution" with the suggestion I read his chapter about thermodynamics and evolution in Debating Design. I could not find in the chapter anything that refuted my arguments in the article or my review on of End of Darwin: How A Flawed and Disastrous Theory Was Stolen and Sold. 1) In the introduction Bradley says, "The laws of thermodynamics have a unifying effect in the physical sciences". Do the laws of thermodynamics apply to the evolution of stars? 2) In the introduction, "What is intriguing is that the predictions of one [thermodynamics] seem to contradict the predictions of the other [evolution]." A living organism is a more complex piece of machinery than a Boeing 747 in flight. I don't see how it makes any sense to speak of the temperature or entropy of an airplane. For the same reason an airplane doesn't have a temperature, a living organism does not have a temperature. I refer you also to the quote from Biology's First Law: The Tendency for Diversity and Complexity to Increase at under the Second Law of Thermodynamics.3) In the introduction, "The Second Law of Thermodynamics suggests a progression from order to disorder… in the physical universe." The second law applies only to systems of non-interacting entities and systems with chemical reactions as a source or sink of energy.  4) In the introduction, "Unlike biological evolution, where it is fashionable to believe that there is sufficient creative power in mutation combined with natural selection to account for the diversity of life in the biosphere, it is generally recognized the origin of life is one of the great mysteries in science." Natural selection acting upon innovations explains only the adaptation of species to the environment, not common descent. There are no mysteries in science, there are only unanswered questions. (There are only mysteries in the method of inquiry called metaphysics.) There are seven quotes in "revolution-quotes" under Natural Selection Explains Adaptation Not Common Descent. Laymen think that natural selection explains how bacteria evolved into mammals in only 3.5 billion years because of misinformation disseminated by advocates of intelligent design and their opponents. The misinformation that evolution does not violate the second law is perpetrated because saying the second law does not apply to evolution sounds like saying evolution violates the second law. Saying this sounds like creationism and intelligent design.  5) In part 3 under Thermodynamics and Configurational Energy, "Imagine a chemical system that is comprised of fifty amino acids of type A and fifty amino acids of type B. What happens to the configurational entropy if two of these molecules chemically react? The total number of molecules in the systems drops from 100 to 99 with 49 A molecules, 49 B molecules, and a single A-B bipeptide. The change in configurational entropy is given by ...[Entropy = k ln 25]" This equation is dangerously close to eq. 4b in the AJP article, which I am saying is absurd because the Boltzmann equation is used to calculate the change in entropy of an organism as it evolves. Your equation is okay, I suppose, because you create a hypothetical situation where 100 molecules go to 99 molecules. The AJP article simply plugs a probability into the Boltzmann equation and says it is a change in the entropy of an organism. 6) In part 3 under Thermodynamics of Open Systems, "The total entropy change that takes place in an open system such as a living cell must be consistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics and can be described as follows:∆S(cell) + ∆S(surrounding) > 0." This is like saying ∆S(airplane in flight) + ∆S(surrounding) > 0. An airplane can be broken up into a number of thermodynamic systems, e.g., the engine, pilot’s cabin, metal wing, etc. Each thermodynamic system will have its surroundings and this law will apply. But to suggest that there is such a thing as the entropy of an airplane in flight is nonsense. A living cell has much more machinery in it than an airplane.What follows is four more references about this matter. 1)   McIntosh, A.C., "Information and entropy – top -down or bottom-up development in living systems?", Int. J. of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics. Vol. 4, No. 4 (2009), pp. 351 to 385.2)   Fourth paragraph of Ilya Prigogine, Gregoire Nicolis, and Agnes Babloyantz, "Thermodynamics of evolution”, Physics Today 25(11) (1972), pp. 23 to 28. View online:   My article in
by D. Roemer
Wednesday, March 6, 2013
keith davis article in the previous PERSPECTIVES issue 0 J. Burgeson I am much impressed with this article, which combines a  discussion on the scientific philosophy/methodology and the climate change "debate."What do others think of it? Are there any problems? I found none myself.  John Burgeson, ASA member
by J. Burgeson
Friday, March 1, 2013
Visit to VA 0 C. Crocker I will be visiting the DC area from March 12-25 and would love to meet up with any ASA members in the area. Not sure if this is how to contact folks--if not, please let me know.  Caroline Crocker (
by C. Crocker
Friday, February 15, 2013
Ten Things a Christian Should Know 2 D. Fischer Nice 10, Dick,I have no criticism suggesting anything is wrong, but would like to suggest a tiny tweak or two for clarity in the likelihood that you will be using this again. In 1, Big Bang is often described as an explosion, yet explosions involve things moving through space.  Big Bang was an explosion of space, or spacetime if you like.  It was, to say the least, a great expansion that is still taking place.In 2, some may think you mean that the solar system came directly from an exploding star, but the preliminary supernova (from 60Fe evidence and more) was probably the trigger that began the collapse of, likely, a giant molecular cloud (GMC), whereby a stellar nursery of many thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of star systems, began forming, including the solar system. 
by G. Cooper
Saturday, December 22, 2012
Evolution and Imago Dei by Sy Garte in God and Nature 2 D. Roemer Animals do not change. Only, humans change. I exist now and I existed 10 years ago. I am the same being. But I am a different being now than I was 10 years ago. No animal has ever said such a thing. The author did not express it this way. The author simply noted the sense observation that, for example, humans used to live in caves and now they live in skyscrapers. Saying humans are embodied spirits is just another way of saying humans are indefinabilities that become conscious of their own existence. We can comprehend what a human is because we know everything that we do and everything that happens to us. But we can’t define or explicate what a human being is. The word "level” implies a hierarchy or cardinal system: level 1, level 2, level 3. The human mind has four such levels: observation, inquiry, reflective judgment, deciding what to do with our bodies. The human mind either observes things or asks questions. The human mind does not have a function that lies between observing and asking questions. The metaphysical definition of self-awareness is that it is the ability to turn in on yourself and catch yourself in the act of your own existence. Defining self-awareness as being able to recognize your self in the mirror is the scientific definition of self-awareness. 
by D. Roemer
Thursday, November 1, 2012
If Truth Be Known by Clarence Menninga 0 D. Roemer Human beings observe the remains of animals that can’t be observed, and ask: Where did the remains come from? Scientists invented the theory of evolution: Life evolved from bacteria to mammals over a period of 3.5 billion years.The author, a member of ASA and a teacher at Calvin College, marshals the evidence for the theory of evolution (carbon dating, fossils, geological observations), and discusses the evidence put forth by creationists to show the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Menninga respects creationism because it is based on an interpretation of the Bible, however, he feels knowledge of our salvation history is compromised by the rejection of the scientific history of our planet.Menninga rejects the idea that evolution is a fact. He is quite right because there is another theory, related to the Bible and religious faith, that many scientists believe is true. It is the theory that free will is an illusion. There is very little evidence for this theory, which arises from the question: What is the relationship between myself and my body? The answer to this question supported by evidence is that free will is a mystery and humans are embodied spirits. This is why it is important to distinguish between observations and theories. One of the arguments advanced by creationists is that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics, and Menninga addresses this question. Unfortunately, he shows a lack of understanding of thermodynamics and of evolutionary biology. Fact or theory, evolution gives rise to the question of what caused it. The only theories that even attempt to explain evolution are creationism and the theory of intelligent design (ID). Forgetting about orthogenesis, the other theory is natural selection, but natural selection only explains the adaptation of species to the environment. It does not explain the increase in the complexity of living organisms as the evolved from bacteria to mammals.Evolutionary biologists always speak of "adaptive evolution.” The old model for evolution is a tornado hitting a junkyard and producing a Boeing 747 in flight. The new model is a computer generating an English sonnet by the random selection of letters. This model is an attempt to understand the evolution of the primary structure of a protein, which is a chain of hundreds of amino acids. The benefit of the new model is that you can calculate how long it would take a computer to do this. No one has done this calculation because nobody cares. No evolutionary biologist thinks natural selection explains the complexity of life. I refer skeptical readers to an award-winning book by professors of biology at Harvard and Berkeley (The Plausibility of Life: Resolving Darwin’s Dilemma). Another reference from mainstream biologists is Biology’s First Law: The Tendency for Diversity and Complexity to Increase in Evolutionary Systems.Note: This is the first half of the review I posted on where I downloaded If Truth Be Known for free. I came across the book because Dr. Menninga sent me an email saying that I was wrong about an American Journal of Physics article ("Entropy and evolution") being absurd. The rest of my review explains the second law of thermodynamics and evolution. Most of what I say I already said on my Open Forum topic about the American Journal of Physics. I'v attached the article that should be retracted and says the same thing Dr. Menninga says in his otherwise informative book. 
by D. Roemer
Saturday, October 6, 2012